The Power We Hold - Season 2 Episode 07: Heather McGhee

Thank you for joining me, your host  eco-visual artist and spiritual coach Vanessa Albury, on my journey to becoming a better ally to people of all diversities (bipoc, LGBTQAI2S+, non-normative brained and embodied +) and steward of the environment in podcast form as The Power We Hold! This is part of Coral Projects' work in eco-consciousness healing. In this space we have in-depth conversation together with people of all backgrounds and diverse perspectives about difficult topics full of love, healing and what it is to be a human loving on planet Earth, our only home for now.

This episode is a re-airing of a really powerful conversation Trevor Bayack and I had with Heather McGhee back in 2021 about her research and book The Sum of Us.  I like to revisit this conversation to mark my growth and to remember my desire to learn, grow and improve while having compassion for myself. I wish the same for you!


Show Notes:
Trevor Bayack's Spread Love Free Market website
Spread Love Free Market IG

Heather McGhee's book The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together
Do buy it from your local bookstore, bipoc owned if have one in your city.  My favorite NYC bipoc-owned bookstore is also feminist, called Cafe Con Libros does ship!
Her website with appearance and talks linked.

The Power We Hold Podcast website
Vanessa Albury IG, website
Coral Projects IG, website + Make a tax-deductible donation
Get your Custom Sea Coin
Learn more about the doc film Coral Projects in Italy + Hyperallergic
Book an Akashic Records reading with me here or via my website

Music Clear Skys by Wael Elhalaby IG, Soundcloud
Audio Editing by Bryan Klausing Rain Junkies website, LinkedIn

Recorded March 19, 2021 in Brooklyn, NY

Transcript

Welcome back to the Power We Hold podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Albury. I'm so delighted to have spent the month of February Black History Month with three incredible black creatives.

Trevor Bayack of Spread Love Free Market, Will Sylvince, the comedian and filmmaker, and Tiffany Elle Burgess, my high school classmate and current star of The New Color Purple,

 as well as an author of three really beautiful children's books and producer and up to so much good stuff. I wanted to round out this set of conversations with the re -airing of an episode that I recorded with Trevor Bayack back in 2021,

in summer 2021 with Heather McGee. Heather McGee is an incredible thinker and strategist. She's a contributor to CNN and MSNBC.

 She toured with Michelle Obama recently. She's skyrocketed since Trevor and I spoke with her. Here in 2021, but she wrote a really, really powerful book called The Sum of Us that I highly recommend to everybody.

 It's, in short, illustrating how racism not only impacts and hurts Black communities and minority communities,

 but also the dominant community, the white and Caucasian communities. It's 10 stories of real events that happened in American history where racism has also hurt,

 clearly hurt white people as well. So I discovered this book through Trevor Noah, who's incredible, and introduced it to Trevor Bayack because he and I were having these conversations around.

 without formal language. Like, we know racism hurts everybody. We know it does. We don't have any proof. We're just, you know, lay people, but we're here to do something different,

 right? We're here to learn and to grow and to create community together across our beautiful differences. And so we both really latched onto Heather's book and gave us specific...

 language and specific ideas to make it easier to understand what we wanted to be doing. So I share this episode to celebrate Black minds,

 Black genius is what I'm going to call it, to share Heather's brilliant work because it's so impactful, it's so basic. basic. Like it's so basic for America.

 I'm in the UK and there's definitely issues here that they could also benefit from Heather's research. But yeah,

 it's like it should be basic education. Every high school kid should read her book. That's what I think. Every American needs to know this information.

 especially because we're increasingly a country of diversity. Every year we have more and more people coming into the country from other countries,

 and also we're making babies together, right? We're making people that have been in America for a while, and people that are new to America. There's new children being made, and soon we're all going to be mixed in.

 into each other in this beautiful way. And so you have to, you know, it's not the only reason, of course, but like, it's a, it's a good impetus to learn how to be with other people,

 to be with people who are different than who, how we are. Right. So the third reason I'm sharing this episode now is to mark,

 as this podcast does, my journey. into becoming a better ally to people of all our beautiful differences and Stuart to the planet. This conversation was a little under two years,

 three years ago now, recorded and I've learned so much in that time. I hope it shows, it's okay if it doesn't. And I really appreciate this.

 this version of myself who was seeking and trying new things and a little scared. I ought to be honest with you when I hear this episode,

 I see that part of me who is like, I don't really know what I'm doing here, but I'm trying, right? And I want to do better. I know that much. And I want to learn.

 I know that much too. And I definitely step in it. And in this episode, I even feel like I step in it. It's not a huge step, but like I share a personal story with Heather and her response is really generous.

 I think it's something that we need to keep in mind, you know, when we're talking to people who have come from a non -privileged position, you know, we're not going to understand their whole story,

 right? Like, be it. it somebody who's black or somebody who's gay or somebody who has narcolepsy like I do, you know, there's going to be parts of that person's experience that you just don't have the bandwidth or the experience to understand what their life is like.

 So it could be really trying for someone to have to re -explain the same thing over and over again. So I really appreciate this book for giving us that education,

 right? And I hope in your listening to this episode with me and even if you've listened to this segment before, you get something new out of it because I believe that with every good,

 every good artwork, every good work, every good work. creative effort, there's something more to experience, something new to receive each time you hear it, each time you see it, each time you engage with it.

 I came from and still come from a perspective of spirituality and the beautiful oneness that I believe we all are.

 And on a very practical level, I believe we are all one. Like, I'm not just saying that like a woo woo term. You know, I do believe it as a woo woo term also. Woo -hoo for woo woo.

 But I also believe that, you know, on a very practical level, there's so much to gain from knowing history,

 right? Will Sylvince talks about that in the episode. that aired two episodes ago, the value of knowing our history. And so I really would love to see every American reading this book and that it just becomes common in our culture that we just understand that there's this built in bias against black people,

 against anyone who's bipoc, against anyone who's non -normative in any kind of way. And as we open up these conversations and open ourselves up to each other more and more and more,

 inevitably we grow and we learn and we create more beauty together. That's what it's really all about for me. So I hope you enjoy this episode that was recorded with Trevor Bay at Give Me The Loop podcast back in the day.

 And I really enjoy it. And I'm definitely gonna enjoy re -listening to it and hearing Heather's genius. So without further ado, I give you Heather McGee in conversation with Trevor Bayack and myself.

 Thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) So we met at McCarren Gathering about a year ago and during the course of those weeks,

 months, we worked on, we were activists in the streets trying to do good, trying to figure out the ways to dismantle or improve the system. And one of the things that we started working on together was Freedom Market.

 And through Freedom Market, Vanessa introduced me Oh, I think you posted it on Discord first, this link to Heather McGee.

 - Oh, the book, yeah. - This amazing book, an amazing author, Heather McGee. Vanessa posted on Discord and I saw the interview on Trevor Noah and I was just blown away just by that short two minute interview.

 And I was like, wow, this is exactly, what is this? basically tells the story of my discovery from the launch in a freedom market. And next thing you know,

 tell me about the how. - Well, I was just so inspired by the term solidarity dividends. I mean, I had been talking with you and we'd been talking in the market about what collaboration looks like and how we collaborate.

 But that term really smacked me in the face. Like, yes, that's the term that we need. So I sent her a cold email. I just, I was like,

 "Dear Heather." Dear Heather, that's how it starts. I think you're amazing and your book really applies to the project that I'm helping to co -create with my community in North Brooklyn,

 and we would love to pick your brain about it. And amazingly, her... coworker, her colleague, Alyssa, has been at the gathering. She was there over the summer as well.

 So she was already able to probably inform Heather, I imagine, about what we're up to. Yeah, we were doing cartwheels.

 We were like, wow, this is high -fiving over the air high fives of the phone. And so I was like, wow, this is high -fiving over the air high fives. our guest today is Heather McGee.

 And I would like to introduce Heather right now. Hello, Heather. Thank you for coming on Give Me the Loop. We are honored to have you. Well, thank you, Vanessa and Trevor.

 Thank you so much for your podcast, for what you're trying to build, for the community that you're creating. You have testified on Congress. drafted legislation, developed strategies for organizations and campaigns that want changes to improve the lives of millions.

 You've helped build the non -partisan think and do tank Demos, serving four years as president. You make regular media appearances on programs including NBC's Meet the Press.

 And now you're on this book tour of which I was told totally blown away when you agreed to spend time with us. Our co -host Vanessa reached out to you and you said, "Yes,

 we were doing cartwheels." Isn't that correct, Vanessa? It's so true. Awesome. Well, yeah, so that actually brings me to our first question for you.

 When I read your book and listen to your interviews and I start to get a picture. picture of your experience in life. I hear a person who seems empowered,

 seems largely empowered. And I'm curious, it's a two -part question. One, do you feel empowered? And two, how do you take care of yourself?

 How do you prepare in light of all the intense stories that you've lived through personally, the the history that you've read, the, I mean,

 that story of the child who had the rocking chair over her face to where she couldn't eat solid food. I almost dropped the book. I mean, you, you are absorbing so, so much in this work that you're doing that is unpleasant to say the least.

 And so I'm really curious, how do you take care of yourself? How do you fill yourself up to to show up ready to do all this work? I wrote my book,

 The Some of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together. In many ways, it's a love letter to this country, the little pieces of it that are what I think today are signs of the country that we're becoming.

 I am the descendant of enslaved people on both sides of my family. And the fortitude that I have to move forward and to keep betting on people and to keep trying to build bridges comes from being in the shoes that I'm in as a person.

 person whose ancestors had to deal with so much more and who had far less to combat it with. I think there is a degree of hope that is somewhat inherent in black politics last night before I went to bed and then again this morning when I first woke up early I watched Reverend Warnock's first floor speech on the U .S.

 Senate and you know in many ways he embodies kind of the tradition that I come from which is one of absolute clear -eyed certainty about the depths of human depravity in the service of white supremacy and also being profoundly connected to our truth which is the truths of our comments.

 humanity. And, you know, it's just the tension we have to live with, but I'm so proud of my people and what we've done that it gives me strength to move forward.

 And there's nothing particularly special sort of on a biological basis about us. It's about what we've done. in the face of what has been done to us.

 And I do think that that spirit of resilience and overcoming is part of the human condition. And I think that black people model it for the world.

 And if the world would just let go of the lie of racial hierarchy and kind of... of, and many of us join us on this path,

 right, to justice, we would all be so much better off. - Do you find that in this long haul effort that you're creating,

 that you're working towards, I mean, not everyone is on the same path that you're on and people with similar backgrounds aren't on the same path that you're on, right? - Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. - I'm just wondering on a personal level,

 note, how you show up for that full. - I'm a super social person, I love parties,

 I love people, I love, you know, strangers who are just neighbors I haven't met yet, you know, I love, I think that connection on a very kind of basic level.

 trying to, you know, being on a group thread, group text thread with my girlfriends from high school, having dinner parties, which of course is something that,

 you know, we have this big dining room table that I got as my first piece of furniture I ever bought for myself and it can hold like 10 people, which was like so...

 glamorous. It doesn't even have leaves, right? You can't make it smaller. [LAUGHTER] - Sounds beautiful. - It's pretty rustic. It's not fancy, but it's big,

 and it has defined my real estate choices ever since. Actually, I live in New York now, and there are only so many places where you can have any room in the house that could fit something like that.

 But, you know, I think honestly, connecting with other people, making other people laugh, smiling with other people, that's what feeds me. It's also, of course, been a huge challenge in this pandemic.

 But that's probably the thing, the well that I draw from the most. I love that. That's beautiful. It comes across that you really engage and love people. And that's what I really loved about the book,

 the journey that you took me through. You've taken all these things that I knew but did not understand, and they've given me a clearer picture of just how insidious and deeply rooted racism is in America.

 Post George Floyd, I had this awakening about economic justice that led me down a path where I would come to know things but not really understand. And there's in this chapter, chapter eight, you have this discussion with Kirstie.

 And she said this thing that's right. resonating. She said, "You know there's a difference "between knowing and understanding." And she said, "So I think I have come to understand." And that really kind of defines how the book resonated with me.

 There's that old axiom that says that you never want to know how the sausage gets made. And it's kind of the story of our democracy. If you're sitting at the table.

 but if you're on the other end of the spectrum, the opposite is true. How do you appeal to those of us who are, to those, not us, but those people who are sitting at the table,

 how do you show that it is in their own self -interest to see how this sausage gets made? I'm using a very, kind of,

 the unflattering description that I'm using is completely opposite to your writing style, which is very poetic. So I'm hoping that you could put it in a better light than I just did.

 - Well, you know, well, thank you, first of all, for saying that. It's still really moving to me to hear, hey, that anybody's read the book, you know? I've been writing and I wrote it over the course of nearly four years,

 and it was a conversation between me and-- myself. And then suddenly, you know, people are listening and reading and having it touch them and open their eyes and ways. And that's still,

 I don't take that for granted at all. It's still so, so wonderful. I think that what I set out to do in the sum of us is to create a coherent story about...

 about why it is that we're in this mess, why it is that our country seems so dysfunctional, how we got here, materially rich and yet vastly unequal,

 how we got to this place where the country that used to have, for example, it's just its pipes clean and can't keep the lights on in Texas and can't keep a bridge standing in Minnesota,

 right? How it is that we lost countless numbers of public pools that were closed due to racism and the desire not to integrate segregated pools,

 right? The drain public pool is the metaphor at the heart of my book. What happened? when to white support for public goods once the public was no longer seen as good.

 I needed to explain it because I felt like I'd spent nearly 20 years trying to convince policymakers in Washington and in state houses to do the right thing,

 right? To make better policy decisions about our economy and to. make it easier for people to have the American dream. And I,

 you know, bring them research that said this is in the best interest of our economy. This is in the best interest of our American families. And it sort of fell in deaf ears. And so I went out on this journey to try to figure out what else was going on.

 What was I missing? What was this sort of iceberg, this, this subterrain story that was blocking progress? And it turns out that it's really the zero sum worldview,

 this idea that progress for people of color has to come at white folks expense that has convinced many white people to oppose the kinds of policies that would be good for everyone if they can be convinced that it would really just be good for people of color.

 or that it would somehow flatten the racial hierarchy. And it's better to hold on to those signs and those feelings of white privilege and white advantage than it is to have actually better stuff for white people,

 right? That people would actually forego, for example, in the chapter where I visit with workers in Mississippi who had just lost. a union organizing drive,

 made it clear that the reason why the majority of white workers voted against the union was because they saw it as something that could put people on an even playing field,

 and that would make them lose the relatively small perks that they had from a white management class. What the workers call the buddy buddy system where who you hunted with mattered more than your work ethic and where white workers were so privileged at the plant that they had the cushier jobs.

 One one guy Ernest told me you can tell the white workers jobs are so close. You can tell how close they are. You can go straight from work to the happy hour. You don't have to go home and shower.

 You know, it's those little advantages right that white workers want to hold on to but none of them. had good health care or good retirement benefits or job security. All of them had wages that were lower than they would be if they were unionized,

 right? So that's really been the story. And I'm just, I'm trying to clarify really what it is that are the costs of racism to everyone,

 to our environment, to our school systems, to college opportunity, to the levels of poverty we tolerate in this country to make it you know to have people actually do some accounting is it worth it in the end.

 I wanted to ask you about the fear of the term racism amongst some white people. Someone recently called me racist because I didn't want to engage with him and it was misapplied.

 I found him misaligned with me and that actually just didn't want to spend time with this person in the end. And he was aggressive, I found. And he used the term to try to hurt my feelings,

 right? And not that this, I don't think this happens often, but I think it happens sometimes that sometimes people that are watching this, I don't think it happens often, but I think it happens sometimes that sometimes people that are watching this, I don't think it happens often. are called racist as a means to hurt them,

 to upset them. And I think that's counterproductive. But we also know that there are moments that a white person can be doing something racist or thinking something racist and acting on that and don't realize that it's coming from a racist place.

 So I'm thinking about... how do we take the emotional charge out of the word and turn it into a productive word?

 - Yeah, it reminds me of a moment I had when I was listening to a bunch of white folks in Maine who were,

 right, who told me it is the way to state munition in the nation. And it is the state where the children are the least likely to go to school with someone who's not white. So,

 you know, when I've spent a fair amount of time there for the book, I was like, okay, so let's let me go to a place that's sort of like the whiteopia and see how things are going, you know? And whiteopia as coined by my former colleague,

 Ben. Rich Benjamin in his book "Searching for Whiteopia," which is a really wonderful book. So in that roundtable conversation with some mainers,

 there was a woman named Peg who talked about her own biases and talked about having kind of a "fear response" when she sees people who are different.

 And I think she was sort of basically talking like black people or black men. And she said that what she was sort of marveled at the fact that she still has that,

 even with all of the kind of conscious knowledge that she has, that she's a community organizer and a volunteer. And she works with this progressive organization.

 called Main People's Alliance. And, you know, she knows all the right things, right? And yet she, her amygdala is, as her words, right? She was like, I mean, my amygdala kicks in and I feel this sort of fight or flight,

 this like foreign other, you know, reaction. And she says, but I try to just hold it and look at it and sort of marvel at it and say,

 wow, look at it. me still having that reaction. As opposed to getting defensive about it or trying to deny that it's happening or going into a shame spiral about it,

 I think that's really the way we need to move. And I hope that when the full extent of America's racism and how much it's really been,

 you know, how much our system. was created as a racial apartheid system. Part of the reason why racism feels so loaded to white folks, charters of racism feel so loaded to white folks is that they believe in the myth of American innocence.

 Take, for example, World War II. We think of ourselves as like the superheroes in the story, right? We freed Europe,

 we freed the Jews in the camps, we were the people who vanquished the Nazis. That fits in the American story of we are the good guys.

 - Right. - Nobody ever takes a moment to acknowledge that the Nazis, when they wanted to create a system of racial apartheid segregation and genocide,

 what nation did they have to look at as the right example of how to write race into all of your laws? United States. But the United States. Thank you. Trevor Noah talks about South Africa looking to studying American racism to protect India.

 Yeah. If we realize the extent of it, then any individual racist thoughts or reactions shouldn't seem like, "Oh my God,

 I'm a bad person." It's like, "I'm a product of the society. Let's start as a baseline there." I mean, this is how the absence of any kind of truth -telling process in this country and the perennial lies that are ginned up,

 particularly in the right way, but then also the silence of the center on racial issues. It's really doing a disservice to our people.

 It's leaving us sort of, it's robbing us of our own history. It's leaving us ill -equipped to, you know,

 to face the world that has been left to us and in many ways. ways, it's sort of an ongoing theft.

 - Yes. - You know? - It's funny because what comes to mind for me is my first reaction when I heard the voice memo calling me a racist.

 I thought, well, yeah, I'm a white person in America. Like my first thought was like, 'cause Trevor and I actually had had a conversation a few days ago. before about how, you know, even he has had racist thoughts before,

 and, you know, he's a black man in America, and my friend Katie, who is a white person who teams up with a black woman to do racial education for communities,

 introduces herself as, "Hi, I'm Katie. I'm a racist." But contrasting to attempting to use it as a term to to put me down,

 to make me feel bad, attempting to use it as a term that was meant to hurt or to harm, as opposed to using it as a term that is productive,

 that brings us to understanding, "Oh, wait, what I said or what I did is maybe coming from a place that I didn't know it was coming from." That's one thing that I want to address what you said.

 said there, it's a great point. And there's this story about Ali Takada and how she rejected this privilege,

 this inside lane. And she took her, I mean, you could tell that I don't have to recap the story, but just for our audience, she took her kids out of a white school, placed them in a more diverse school.

 (upbeat music) And to me, this is a resonating example of how rejectant harmful status quo can be liberating. So when we talk about that word racism,

 I think one of the takeaways is that you embrace this word. As Vanessa said, her friend starts off the conversations with I am a racist. It gives you a starting point. It takes away the defensiveness of having the conversation.

 I would love to hear more about that experience you had with Ali Takada. I don't know if I'm pronouncing who that is. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, Ali. So this isn't a chapter called "Living Apart," which is a chapter where I talk about the cost of segregation to all of us.

 There's a whole section where I talk about the arms race that white parents engage in in order to kind of run away from the public schools that are,

 in their view, kind of inferior because of what systemic racism has wrought on public schools. They may not identify it as what systemic racism has wrought on public schools,

 but but they do know, right, that, that, like, and brown neighborhoods of black and brown schools are inferior in their minds and they try to great lengths right they they stretch to move to a different school district which where the houses cost more and um they do this all to kind of you know for your children right because you do everything for your children and of course there's also a movement movement across the

 country of white parents or white adjacent parents. I'll come back to that in a second. That's how Ali Takata sort of describes yourself. That are more willing to recognize integration as a positive good for communities at large and for their own children.

 And so, Ali Takata, thank you so much for being here today. tells the story in the book of moving to Austin and initially, going on greatschools.org, which is a school rating website and sort of seeing that the best,

 what best schools were on the side of Austin that was the whitest in buying a schoolhouse there and sending her kids to this, basically segregated white school.

 Well, and her kids... are of mixed Asian heritage, but she's half white and half Japanese. And she's sort of white seeming to most folks who thinks would sort of read her as white and her family has enough money to make these choices.

 And ultimately, after a year at the school, she realizes that these parts of the culture of the school that are rubbing her the wrong way, the sense of entitlement and sort of obsession with each individual child,

 the sense that the rules don't apply to the parents, that the parents know more than the educators and the administrators, she identifies it finally as,

 you know, kind of aspects of white privilege. And she doesn't want her kids to grow up learning that that is the way you operate in the world. And so she quietly researches with her husband,

 you know, alternative schools and ends up sending her kids to be a school on the east side of Austin, which is majority kids of color.

 And she calls it a global majority school, right? Because of course, people of color broadly described are the majority of people in the globe and and she's so happy with her decision.

 She feels so at peace that she's really, really living out her values. Do you think that narrative could play out in other aspects of society? A school is one setting.

 But in terms of capitalism or politics, do you see in your experiences and your travels and your conversations? conversations, do you find people who are willing to sacrifice being on the inside lane for the greater good?

 - You know, it's tough, right? I mean, I think part of the problem is that our society guarantees so few people comfort and safety, right?

 That it feels like we each individually have to, do everything we can to get into that narrow band, right? That's part of the trick.

 It's always been part of the trick. If you have this floor that is so low that everyone looks at the ladder up from that floor and is trying to climb up from how we allow people to go so massively without,

 right? We have virtually no safety net. It is so easy to tumble down and to sink into this hell of abject poverty,

 of incarceration, of, you know, illness that goes without treatment of being one paycheck away from losing your home.

 there's just no guarantees in American society the way that we have structured it. And so there's this sense that everyone is on his or her own to try to climb up that ladder and sort of,

 you know, escape the flames below, right? And so that's part of what keeps the system in place.

 right? If there were a floor, if we were to-- and I come back, Trevor, to my conversation with Kirsti Yilha, who is this Scandinavian sociologist who I spoke with in the chapter on climate,

 who talks about knowing and understanding, what she was really understanding in her first year in the United States was basically how brutal the zero -sum thinking is and how it's possible to have a society with these deep divides.

 And she said, she says, you know, in Sweden, we, you know, we have class inequality, but if you're poor,

 you are still guaranteed an apartment. You know, if you are sick, you receive medical care. You know, it's like,

 yeah, so in many ways, that's part of the, that's part of the game, right? Is that if you keep, if you guarantee nothing, then of course, each individual is going to sack.

 a lot, including potentially, you know, a sense of solidarity and morals in order to make sure that you and yours have what you need. And that's why it's so important and mutually beneficial to create,

 to refill the pool of public goods, as I talk about in the book, to make it easier for people to live, to meet their basic needs and to have a shot at fulfilling their dreams,

 so that we don't have this dog -eat -dog racial competition. - I hear in what you're describing the prevalence of the scarcity mindset in a country where we have enough,

 like you say in the book, to feed everyone, to house everyone, we have enough. And yet, we create the scarcity. I totally agree that it's essential that we learn how to get out of that mindset.

 How do we create collaboration across races? I'm thinking about myself, for example, I'm an artist for the last, well, 20 years basically.

 I've been collaborating with my community, understanding and learning each time that I work with my collaborators, but there's my... my art community, that when I give,

 I receive back an exponential abundance that I don't even know is coming when I first jump into the collaboration. I just, I do it from a place of love and I receive back just amazing results that I could have never predicted.

 And that would seem almost counterintuitive in our, you know, I must survive over everybody else mindset. So I mean, for me, when Trevor first brought up the freedom market,

 it was a natural thing for me to want to be a part of because I have an experience in my life of collaborating with others and benefiting from it. So I saw immediately that this benefits us all,

 right? But how do we, how do we show people that don't help? that experience? How do we get them involved in the collaboration? Well, I mean, this is where organizing comes in, right?

 I mean, the fundamentals of community organizing are still really sound. And in many ways, we're in a-- in boom times,

 we're organizing. Throughout the course of the journey that I took to write The Sun of Us, it was really so clear-- to me that when people who have a need in their life join with someone else who has that common need in pursuit of a common solution,

 that's where the magic happens. You know, you don't get people to join in fellowship, particularly not across lines of race, just 'cause,

 right? Just for the joy of being here. in relationship with people across lines of race. That's not how you say, "Okay, I'm going to spend hours out of my week doing this." But there's got to be some need,

 right? And whether it's need to raise the minimum wage in your community, it's a need to clean up or take on a big polluter. It's the need to have better funded schools.

 It's the need to stop. voter suppression. It's the need to get more housing. Whatever it is, that's where you connect. And that's on a level that's deeper than your cultural identity.

 It's about your sense of self, your power, your survival, your senses of fairness and justice. That's where you make that connection out of a love of something,

 you know, your community, your children, you know, whatever it is. And then that's where those bonds become really strong. That chapter where you spoke about,

 you spoke about bonding, working together, that chapter, chapter five, no one fights alone. That, the way that the unions got together was impressive also in chapter,

 you spoke about Maine. I love that example, that use case that I hope everybody will try to replicate of inclusion,

 basically a town that was dying, embraced the influence of the union, and they revitalized this economy. And the idea,

 for me, that leadership comes from oppressed groups, is one of the things that post -George Floyd has instilled a sense of purpose. I love this idea that, for me,

 as a black American, I never quite felt that there was a role for us as a people to tell our story, to be a part of it of the positive narrative of this country.

 And you said something, a few things. When you were referring to women of color in this quote, it says that the social and economic and cultural conditions that have been imposed on people at the base of the social hierarchy have given us the clearest view of the system.

 We can see how it is broken and those who have been broken by it. I love that passage and speak a little bit about that. One more before,

 I'm going to do that example with Vanessa saying, "I wish I was black." Or the quote on page 243 and it's like, "Freedom, liberty, justice, who could possibly love those ideas more than those denied them?" This speaks for itself.

 the leadership of our people, and this book was empowering for that reason. I was like, wow, okay, yes, we are leading, and this is, when I look 200 years ahead and they look back at the story of America,

 I see them saying, okay, who really forced our country to live up to its ideals? So can you speak a little bit about that? Well, thank you for underlining those.

 those passages and for reminding me of them. Yeah, I think that the idea here that I'm trying to convey is that we need multiracial coalitions in order to thrive,

 right? But it's surely tactically, it's a number of things. game. You can't get to a majority without a multiracial coalition. There are not enough black and brown people.

 We need some white people. There are not enough progressive white people. They need us. That's just how you get to 50, 60 % in order to win the kinds of things that our country and our planet need to survive,

 action on climate change and inequality, saving our democracy, all of it. These are what I call in the book, The Solidarity Dividends, the gains that we can only achieve by coming together,

 that we simply can't win on our own. And one of the questions is sort of what is the role of each racial group in that?

 And, you know, it's become quite... quite fashionable in progressive circles to say trust back women and follow black women and as I say in the book you know I was always like you know it's like maybe it's because I am a black woman but I was like okay what's behind that why are you saying that?

 What job are you giving me? And it also made it sort of seem like there was something biologically superior about us,

 or biologically reducible to some traits that were in vogue. And that's always dangerous, right? Because if we are biologically X,

 then you decide that X is no longer necessary. We are no longer necessary. But-- But as you read, Trevor, I think it's not about our biology.

 It's about the conditions that we have been subject to that give us the clearest view of the system. And that it's like Angela Glover Blackwell's curb cut effect,

 the idea that when disability rights advocates won the cutting of the curb. So it slopes down. That obviously was essential for people in wheelchairs.

 But now everybody uses them. People delivering big packages use them. Pushing strollers use them. People on bites use them. We assume now that this is the best way to do something,

 but it was done for those that had the least access. So that's really where that idea comes from. from. So I have a question for you about the spectrum of,

 we understand that it's not any one black person's job to educate anyone else about their black experience. And on the other side of the coin is that as white people,

 we are born into racism, like we were born into the air and encouraged and social. to not identify that We're encouraged to not so how do you what do you say?

 specifically to black Americans who feel burdened by the this Having to educate us white people Well,

 I get this question a lot, right? I think part of it is 'cause I had this moment that went viral a number of years ago on C -SPAN where like this exact thing happened, right? Like literally a white person called into a television show while I was on and said,

 "I'm prejudiced, what can I do to change?" Right, and I had to answer him in real time on live TV and that exchange went viral. And so it was like, "Oh, here's this really, "here's this black woman telling this white guy what what to do about his own racism and sort of teaching him.

 And yeah, in that moment on C -Span, I didn't feel triggered by his question. I was, like, happy to help. I was pleased that he was acknowledging it,

 right? Because, you know, there's so much that people have invested in their own innocence. So being able to do that. to just say yeah, I'm prejudiced. It's like well, thank you So I've gotten that question a lot since then,

 okay, you know, it's sort of like You know, is it the black woman's burden to do all this and everything and I'll answer both for myself And then you know as a piece of advice or whatever or how I think about it more broadly um I will speak for myself and say that I think,

 I'm coming around to here in my 40 years on the planet, my understanding that I think I'm a teacher,

 like I think that that's, you know, in a different world I would have been a teacher this whole time. And so I actually love teaching people. and I love seeing that light come on and I love seeing people make connections that they haven't made.

 So that gives me joy. It's not a burden for me. There is a certain amount of like basic literacy that I think people should have on their own,

 give it how much information there has out there in the world. But it's like, you know, if I'm talking to somebody who's in kindergarten and I'm teach them to read, that's amazing,

 right? Like, that's what it is to be a teacher. So I think that's about my personality and my, you know, my purpose and my path, right? And then broadly, of course, not everybody's a teacher. Not everybody should be a teacher.

 We know that about the world. And so, and certainly it was almost like for women, right? Women used to have to be teachers, right? Because only role that we were allowed in public life.

 and the only profession we were allowed to be in in many ways. And so it's the same thing, I think, with black people. Like every black person is not a teacher. It was like every woman wasn't a teacher.

 And so certainly that should not be the expectation. And in that context, I would say there is enough information out there for people to do their own work and then come to class having read the reading.

 you know. And I offer up this book as one of the things that people can read to get a sense of the basics and a framework for understanding the world.

 However, we cannot, I will say this, simultaneously, be aware of just how loud the Trumpism fight Fox News,

 right wing, scapegoating, demonizing, zero -sum bullhorn is. And then say, we don't want to talk about it, all right? We don't want to contest for hearts and minds.

 And that's where I think that oftentimes the left or progressives get in a trap. It's that when we talk about racism, we often talk about it like a purity test. We often.

 talk about it like you're supposed to know this. And it's like, well, sure they're supposed to know it, but where were they supposed to know? Were they supposed to know in school? You know, the majority of people graduating from high school don't know that the civil war was fought to end slavery,

 right? I mean, the massive amount of illiteracy. illiteracy that is racial illiteracy that is created through our public schooling because of,

 you know, the movements in school curriculum to, you know, to suppress that knowledge. And then they go out into the world and they turn on the Most Watched Cable News Network.

 They turn on radio, which is dominated by right -wing voices that go on the Facebook. You've got these conservative meme factors. factories. So it's like, hmm, you know, where are they supposed to learn it?

 It's like, is everyone supposed to pick up a book that says this is how to be anti -racist when in fact they've been told that they're not racist and that the real racists are the people who are talking about race all the time.

 I'm not saying that it's our job, but I am saying that the right wing certainly thinks it's their job. to miseducate people on these issues. So whose job is it then?

 You know, we can't believe it. Reporter I was talking to said that the book had been given to her by her black co -worker, she was white, and that she had read it and was going to give it to her racist uncle.

 And to me, I was like, this is what I'm expecting. I want this book to have something for everyone. So, Trevor and I are all right. in a project that he came up with called The Freedom Market.

 And we are a group of community members, neighbors, who seek to create economic social justice for our BIPOC and allied community.

 We're looking for models of how to measure our success, not only through the economics, but also through well -being, also through connection. also through other touch points.

 And we're curious if you have any advice for us or any pitfalls you might recommend that we look out for as we collaborate across race to create this justice. - Yeah.

 Well, I think, you know, asking the question, right? I mean, taking a sort of community sentiment survey, which is a great organizing. task, right? Getting people to volunteer to go around in the community and ask people a few simple questions about,

 you know, scale one to 10, how do you feel about your, you know, black neighbors? How do you feel about your, you know, how do you feel that, you know, it is on the street, you know, with talking to people and how do you feel,

 you know, how do you, you know, just ask people, you know, ask people now and then ask people. after six months of doing the work and then ask people in six more months of doing the work.

 You know, the people know what it's like. I mean, the people know how it feels in a neighborhood that's gentrifying or a neighborhood that's,

 you know, feels like it's coming together. People know. Great answer. Thank you for that advice. I will, this last question. question, simple, yes or no. We have to wrap it up.

 So this book, amazing. I feel like I've, you used the matrix analogy, matrix analogy, I feel like I've taken the red pill, I'm going down the rabbit hole. Is there any aspect in our society that hasn't been negatively impacted by racism?

 The NBA, NFL, I mean, what is it? There's this saying that democracy is the world. form of government except for all the others. Do you believe that democracy,

 capitalism is salvageable or that we need to start fresh? And do you chalk it up to the bad actors in the system or is it the system? Well,

 that's not a yes and no, the first part was. (laughing) Quickest way you could wrap it up, would be. (laughing) - No, there's no part of the system that hasn't been touched by it,

 but we remake the systems with every child born, everyone who turns 18 and starts to list up their voice and say,

 this is what I consent to and this is what I don't consent to. I do believe in the possibility of change and it will be as radical as the... imagination of our people.

 That's beautiful. That's beautiful. It's also poetic as your book is, Trevor and I, we're both just marveling at your word choice.

 And it reminded me of Joan Didion, South and West. I don't know if you've read that book. That's such high praise. I love Joan Didion. She's amazing. Thank you both so much for doing this,

 for everything that you're doing in the community. community, Trevor. Thank you for being a partner to Trevor Vanessa. It's really just very inspiring. I hope to see you all out in this later spring and summer.

 - Yes. - We're excited. - Excited, thank you, Heather. Thank you very much. - Of course, take good care. Bye. - Thank you. Bye. So that was amazing conversation with Heather. What did you take away from it?

 - She's a singular person. focused, which is amazing to see and inspiring to see and to watch that clarity that she talks about.

 It's really present. And I'm looking at her and looking at how I can apply that to myself more and more on my journey.

 How can I be more clear? She's, She's inspiring. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I felt the same way. I felt we didn't have enough time.

 Like so many questions we both had. We were trying to edit down our questions. I had literally 24 questions to start and this was edited down from the questions I wrote in the book. So if people should see our books,

 like that's another thing. I'm gonna put it on. I'm gonna post that somewhere. And so we were, I was scrambling to, let's choose the right questions to ask to get the most knowledge out of this person who's spent so much time in his whole,

 has so much knowledge and could be so helpful for our cause. And hearing her speak about what I, the journey that I just went on in the last couple of weeks reading this book was,

 was, may I say, an out -of -body experience. Maybe I won't go that far, but it was amazing. And I want to now go back and look at my notes and just kind of compare notes between what I wrote down and what she said.

 But yeah, no, it was an amazing interview. So Vanessa, thank you for co -hosting. We'll see you hopefully in the next podcast. I would love that. that. - All right.

 Mike Bikes, are you wanna say something about Mike Bikes? Jason, what's happening? No? Okay, we'll go to Mike Bikes on Instagram. Lots of activists stuff going on there. Jason is another one of the activists at McCarran and was so kind to allow us to use his studio and his equipment.

 So thank you, Jason, for that. (upbeat music) - Wow, I'm still so into it. this episode. What can I say? Thank you so much for tuning in to the Power We Hold podcast.

 I look forward to next week with you. We have another series of really great conversations coming up. Please, if you enjoyed this conversation,

 rate the podcast, give us a review that really helps. It really helps spread what we're up to here at the Power We Hold podcast. and for Coral Projects. And please share it with a friend.

 Keep the conversation going because that's how we grow, right? We keep talking. We keep at it. We keep trying. Please follow coral.projects on IG and my page,

 Vanessa Albury Official. And if you'd like to go that extra mile and give Coral Projects a little more support, get a little more involved, consider investing in a custom sea coin.

 The link is in the show notes. You might be wondering, what is a custom sea coin and how does that support coral projects and the nonprofit that you're up to? Well, a sea coin is a beautiful little sculpture that I received in a vision from the sea,

 from the ocean. And so I make them, and when I make them custom, I make them with your energies in mind. So it's really about healing your personal dynamic with the ocean,

 with the sea. So you basically follow Link in the bio, you make the purchase, and then I get a little information from you about who you are,

 and then I make this beautiful object for you. The funds go towards our education outreach. (indistinct) We work with kids and help adults also live a more sustainable and eco -friendly life.

 With kids, we do eco -art projects, which is so fun. On my IG, you can see a recent event, a recent project we did in Kenya in December. And it also supports the film development.

 We're making a documentary film, which is part of the education programming as well. So it's all really exciting. All the links are in the show notes and there'll also be links to find Heather McGee's book,

 "The Sum of Us" as well, as to see what Trevor Beck is up to right now. So thank you so much and I'll see you next week. (upbeat music)