The Power We Hold Podcast S02 Ep01: Dr. Sotonye Odugbemi from The School That Tried to End Racism

We open season 2 with a delightful conversation with Dr. Sotonye Odugbemi about her experience in the BBC series The School That Tried to End Racism. She and I, Vanessa Albury your host, have way more in common that we imagined! We laugh our way through difficult topics with love!

Transcript

Hello, and welcome back to the Power Health Podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Albury. 

And I am really into our guest today, Dr. Sotonye Odugbemi. She is featured in the BBC series, The School That Tried to End Racism. If you haven't seen it, it's a must watch, it's so good. And I just love the synchronicities of how she and I connected, and it got me thinking, "Can I just book a ticket to the UK real quick just to go hang out with her?" She's that cool, she's that awesome, and I hope you love her even a fraction of how much I do. 

And before we get into that, though, I want to talk about something that's been on my mind for a few weeks, a few months now, especially; I want to talk about love. Such a simple thing, right? But we make it so complex. Oh, we're so good at that. So I've been teaching a master class that I've developed as a student of Master Sri Akarshana, and it's called Get the Love You Deserve. It covers my four steps for how I have created the life of my dreams and now only have beautiful relationships with other people. 

 I like to say I experience God within everyone now. It's been a huge shift for me, and I want everyone to have that experience in life.

 So I teach people my four steps, or I give them my four steps. So I've been very heavily thinking about love and self -love and living my life, witnessing and observing and I've been very focused on where love is and where love is not.

 There's a huge block that I've noticed around love for myself and for many other people around receiving it

 I find that many of us are very open and ready and eager to give it, but yeah, receiving it seems to be a challenge and I heal this every time it surfaces for me.

 And let me tell you that's a daily activity because I'm also on a pretty intense spiritual journey, as I've mentioned a few times on the show.

 And part of that for me is doing a process called the mirror exercise, which literally you take any trigger that comes up in your life and then you mirror it back onto yourself.

 There are no actual physical mirrors involved. It's more the idea that everyone and everything is your perfect mirror. It mirrors back to you the vibration that you're at in that moment and then it's an opportunity to heal, to heal in that place. So I just, I want to ask, is it okay that we let love and self -love really be a journey?

People talk about everything as a journey and it's true, but can we really live that? Can we live that love is a journey and that there's always somewhere deeper and deeper and deeper to go and to find within ourselves and within love within ourselves?

 So as I've been teaching this class and witnessing my life and the people around me, I've been noticing a pattern of people rejecting themselves from love being offered and they reject it from fear, from a suspicion of well, maybe this isn't real. So like a self -protective mechanism that kind of kicks in like, oh, don't accept it because like what if it's not real and then you're going to get hurt again.

 And so many mind tricks. These are all mental gymnastics. This is where the complex thing comes in. Like it doesn't have to be so complex. The answer is in our heart.

 It's in the heart space. It's not in the mind. When love turns up, you feel it. You don't think it. And so when you're evaluating something offered to you and you and your beautiful, wonderful, intelligent mind, steps in as like, ooh, danger. Flee, run. Like pause, thank you mind, and just feel into it with your heart. Like drop your consciousness, your awareness into your heart. Does it feel like love? If yes, then it's love. Simple, okay? Can we let it be that simple? I reminded of Jay Shetty sharing on his podcast a few months ago in an interview with Trevor Noah about like making a strategic effort in his life to give people love through their love language.

 And if you don't know about love languages, there's five main love languages. And if you Google love languages, you can take a quiz and see what yours is. And then it's a really great door opener for conversations about how we receive love and how we give love.

 Because often, if you like to receive love through affirmations, for example, through verbal, then you're going around probably giving people verbal affirmations of love.

 But what if your partner likes to receive love through gifts? And then you're giving them all this love in the way that they don't really receive it. And you're not giving it in the way that they receive it best.

 So it's a really great conversation opener for understanding love in a deeper way. But what I thought was really interesting about what Jay said was that he was making all these attempts in his life to give people love through the way that they receive love.

 And he noticed that it was like freaking people out. For my paraphrasing, they needed to receive safety before they could receive love.

 It's like we're so blocked from receiving love because it's not safe. And because once I got hurt or I was rejected at this key moment in my life, and that changed the dynamic of how I see love forever, not that we have that conversation consciously with ourselves. It's definitely subconscious. But we can pull it forward and have it consciously with ourselves.

 So he said that he kind of gave up on trying to do that because people just needed to feel safe. So if I could talk to Jay, I would encourage him to not give up and to give it that way anyway. Even if people can't fully receive it, keep trying to give it the way that you know that they receive love.

 And then keep having conversations and opening that door and showing them that they're safe because safety is established through repetition.

When you see something happen over and over and over again, you get accustomed to it and then you rely on it and then it's safe and yeah so what what is what is love and what is self -love because whereas we can give love even if we don't fully have self -love we give love much better from a place of self -love and if you can't love yourself how can you fully give love to somebody else because you don't fully know it you can't give what you don't know right I like to follow special people on Instagram I keep my feet very love -centered and some people I like are Philip Attar, Corey Muscara, Sah D’Simone, Master Sri Akarshana and the I Am Verse team they'll have really great thoughts on it I'm realizing none of those people are women a lot of the women that I follow that talk about love they're talking about it through the lens of business which I think is very interesting so that's like Jocelyn Kelly Reid and Lacey from To Be Magnetic and also my friend Fatima Barwani she just made a post recently about what is self -love and I found it very curious because she highlighted something for me which is that she didn't define self -love she gave similes for it so like access points to it which I found interesting and it made me think about well how do I define self -love and love is a vibration it's a vibrational resonance that we feel in our hearts.

 It's like color. Color is a vibrational resonance we receive with our eyes. Sound is a vibrational resonance we receive with our ears, also with our skin. So words are actually insufficient when we talk about what love is and what self -love is.

 And my personal opinion, and yet, you know, that's what we have. We have words for communication. And we let words stand in for the place of the thing that we're trying to talk about.

 It's like a metaphor. But I think my definition of self -love is a feeling of resonance within of full alignment with who you really are.

 What do you think? What do you think of my definition? I like it. I'm gonna keep thinking on it and feeling into it because this is a journey.

 And I get to go deeper and deeper every day in love. So I'd like to ask you right now, where are you rejecting love being offered to you?

 Not like aggressive, flirty people or like dick pics. That's not love. I mean, real love that you can identify in your heart that this is coming at me from a real place of love.

 I think something that maybe many of us can relate to is that feeling of being disciplined by a parent. parent and when you know that they love you and even though the words feel hurtful or scary or like you're told you're doing something wrong,

 like if you feel into it, you might feel and know already that it comes from love. Yeah, that's not my best example, but it's the one I have right now. But yeah, can we allow genuine love to land? Can we give ourselves the safety we need to accept love?

Can you give yourself the safety you need to accept love? Because truly safety doesn't come from outside. Safety comes from inside.

 It's an inside job. (laughs) And my wish is that we can all feel safe and we can all feel loved so that then we can extra super -duper radiate that out to each other and to the whole world, the whole universe, all the animals and fishes and invertebrates and bioluminescing creatures of the world.

 And then maybe we can live harmoniously here together. In the meantime, please enjoy this conversation with Dr. Sotonye Odugbemi, my new favorite person. And you'll hear more from me soon. So welcome back to the Power We Hold podcast.

My guest today is someone I'm very excited to speak with, someone who I've been taking notes from for many months, Dr. Sotonye Odugbemi, wow, thank you, I practiced, I practiced saying your name, who is someone that was in the TV series in Great Britain, the school that tried to end racism. And I'm so just delighted to have you here. Welcome to the podcast. And I love how we connected.

That's my favorite part so far. It was very organic and I put it out into the universe that I wanted to chat with you and meet you many months ago when I watched the series.

And then, you know, amazingly, you saw a post I made many months ago and commented and then we connected. And I just, I love the way the universe works like that.

 So welcome. Thank you for coming. Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure. So when I saw your post, I said a little prayer and I was like, I'd love to talk with her. And then I think I liked and I commented.

 And I was so shocked when you replied and you said, Hey, it's just been so great. I love your energy and your passion for all the things you do. So it's wonderful to talk to you.

 I'm just so tickled right now. I'm just like, my whole body is a smile. smile. Thank you. Wow. That's so beautiful.

 So can you please introduce yourself to those of you, those of us listening that don't know who you are. Give us like your background, how you self -describe and like context for people to know who you are in your own words.

 Okay. So my name is Satoe Odubemi and I am of Nigerian heritage. I was born in the UK. I then moved back when I was four.

 I then came back when I was 16. And so I like to say that I am 100 % Nigerian and 100 % British. And then I leave you to do the maths, right? I also describe myself as a recovering academic, which means that my background is in, my PhD is in representations of slavery and the slave trade in French West Africa.

 And so that's kind of my background coming to race work. And then obviously being in the documentary, but I essentially am a teacher. I'm a secondary school teacher and I love my kids.

 So beautiful. It takes a really special soul to be a teacher. Yeah. I taught high school for a week. Well, I have to say I was teaching French to a group of underprivileged children in North Charleston, South Carolina, who lived half an hour from the beach, but had never seen the ocean, and they needed English skills and math skills. I was like, I'm so stupid here. What's the point of me here?

 I don't get it. I enjoyed the kids. The kids were amazing. I even enjoyed the disciplinary aspect because I know that it was just like asking for love, you know?

 Yeah. Yeah, I know you know. That's amazing. That's so amazing because I actually am a French teacher. Yes. Oh my god.

 We could do this in French is what you're telling me. Yes, we could. I'll spare our audience because I think there's like two or three French speakers. Wow, that's amazing. I don't think I caught that in the series that you were a French teacher. Yeah, we didn't really, I think we just took the kids out and had that time with them,

 but we didn't do any kind of subject work. It was a special time anyway. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I just like there's so much to talk about here, but I guess like going out of order, it would be so interesting to see with your background from Africa and French speaking and being very much part of Europe and very much African and bringing that together through to this generation,

 that background, I think that seems like a very fertile place to talk about how race became the issue that it is in Western society. Yeah, so I'm curious what thoughts you have around that and what plans are underway like post -documentary, post -series to keep the good stuff going.

 So I would say that I had great experience in Nigeria because we've got three majority tribes in Nigeria, right? Ibo, you're about a house, but I'm a minority tribe.

 And so a lot of people just usually classify me as, "Oh, okay, so you're Ibo." And I'm like, "No, I'm not. Like my grandma is, but I'm not Ibo." And then I'm like, "Oh, so where are you from?" And in the old days it'd be, oh, okay, but we'll just call you Igbo. So I had practice with kind of having to explain what my heritage was when I was in Nigeria. But I like to say, I didn't really realize that I was black or different.

 I knew I was from a different tribe in Nigeria. But I realized I was fully aware of being racialized as black when I moved to the UK. Yeah, that happened when I was when I moved back, I should say when I was 16. So I think you kind of have little moments in your life that prepare you and help you practice for the things that you get to do when you're grown.

 In terms of the show and what we did with that, now I have to say this show was filmed, the documentary was filmed, I want to say five years ago. And yes, wow, that's a long time ago. It is. And it was on standby for two years. We didn't even think so we were we filmed and then we went back to teaching and studying or whatever, right? And we just thought, oh my goodness, we must have been so bad that they don't want to air, they don't want to air this thing. Wow. It was just ahead of its time.

 It was very courageous for the time. It was a very brave move by our leadership at the time. And I actually did not want to be a part of the documentary originally.

 No, I didn't. It's because I know race is sensitive. So I was just like, there's enough drama in my life. No, thank you. And then I was probably the last member of staff to join.

 Just kind of last minute, I thought if I if I talk about representation, and I believe that there should be representation, then I may hypocrite when I don't put myself forward for this kind of thing.

 So I said, oh, can I join? I'll just I think I thought I would just be babysitting the kids. I didn't realize no idea what you were getting into.

 Yeah. But when we go into film, we say to the kids, I remember saying to them, because sometimes they'd be tired. And I'll be like, guys, you're changing the world. You're changing the world. And they say miss is not even that serious.

 Like it's not changing the world. Y 'all have no idea. Cuties. They are they were they were so young. Now they're all taller than me. They're grown.

 But they did impact our I saw it as they impact impacted our local UK community in wonderful ways. But then I'll come later to the impact internationally.

 So what we did as a school, which is your question really, what we did as a school is we focused on three areas one, training for all school stuff, right, on racial inclusion and diversity on unconscious bias. So as teachers, we took the test as well, following the airing of the show, right? Because we said we've got to learn lessons from this.

And so we've done I think since the show every year, probably we've done training on an inclusive curriculum on dealing with racial bias in the classroom and uncomfortable situations,

 regarding race in the classroom and how to deescalate situations while still educating our students, and actually not criminalizing them because that's another that's another aspect that can complicate the absorption of that information.

 So that's one thing. The other thing which is really amazing, I've been so excited to get involved in is I was actually trained at the training school that is run by my school, if that makes sense. So I trained to be a teacher by the training school in the training school that is run by my school is kind of attached. And so what I what has been really great is every year I've had the opportunity to talk to the trainee teachers about racial diversity and look at that and look look at the show.

 So that's a second aspect. And then the third aspect was drip feeding the lessons from the show into the curriculum. And we did that through. We have a wonderful PS he lead who's like that's personal social health and I want to say emotional.

 And that's the that's the subject that we run in school and so she kind of incorporated the lessons from the show into that and all students have exposure to that because it's embedded in the curriculum.

 So that's that's that. I want to take that test. I want to take that test. And then I want and then I want my life to be designed to help me weed it out of me.

 The kids. Yeah, sorry. Oh, I just yeah I just like that as I was watching it I was like wow these kids, like, this is what we this is. This is what adults need to like, it's so easy to relate to children because I think all of us are inner children, see ourselves in the kids in the classroom and, you know, like, they break up they break us open we need children to teach us in that way.

 And I just would love to see that kind of support for the inner children of the adults that, you know, are already baked already cooked. But, you know, that need to be broken open, you know that need that need that support. So many of us are just like, you know, not, not me not you other people got the blinders on more so than others and that like, loving support that I hear you guys create at the school is really beautiful. Yeah, I mean we do have some we do have some challenging moments right where one of the things that was really fantastic but also we had to channel was the kids became very aware of racial prejudice and very able to call it out.

 out. - Yes. (laughs) - And sometimes that can be shouting across the playground that someone's a racist. And so I remember having to take in a zip COVID and the head teacher called me to his office and I thought, oh, what have I done? And you know how you still get that feeling being called to the head teacher's office, right? And there was this group. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm going to be fired. (laughs) And then there was this group of about 10 girls who had kind of, how do I phrase this?

 Sensitively, just the conflicts regarding black lives matter. And some people kind of saying, well, it's rubbish. And other people saying, no, you don't care. And we got them in a room and some kids were on Zoom 'cause they had the COVID.

 And just having a conversation about conflict resolution because when you have agency and you're able to speak up for yourself and call out something that is wrong,

 you need to then have the, not just the tenacity, but sustainable ways, right, to carry out change. And when we grow our leaders, we want them to know that making change isn't just a one -second conversation, making someone feel guilty 'cause they were racist or they had some prejudice. It's about creating systemic change.

 We're teaching them for the future, not just for today, right? And so what was really wonderful at the end of that conversation was we pulled, okay, everybody calm down. And what was nice was we saw allies.

 So there were allies on the side for the girls who were for Black Lives Matter. And then the girls communicated, you know, they had this wonderful communication. And then the other students who didn't understand Black Lives Matter and had disputed it said,

 wow, can we say something? Thank you so much. We didn't understand the depth and the seriousness. And like, I'm a big baby. You saw that on the show, right?

 right? Of course, I'm like, well done girls. You're so great. Yeah. You highlight something that I noticed in my life on a daily basis right now around communication, around like showing up, and it's not a text message, right? It's not like a group chat. It's like an in -person, heart -to -heart, where we're honest and we're open and we stay in the room until everyone understands and everyone's on board. And that's not easy in the world that we live in to create those kinds of environments and to have those kinds of experiences.

 I find myself constantly asking, can we talk? When I'm texting with somebody, can we have a conversation? But a lot of people are resistant to conversations.

 It's almost like they're being called to the principal's office when you say, can we have a chat? It's like, I just want us to love each other. I promise. I love that.

 And yeah, there's just something so powerful about being in dialogue together and sticking to it until everyone's on board.

 And I want to say like an acceptance of the chaos element, like acceptance of the departure, the point of conflict as a blessing to learn how to come together better. Caleb, you know, unfortunately, well, fortunately, she's having this beautiful, you know, her best life. She's in it. She's too busy right now for this. But she is my role model for conversation in this way, because even if it's even if there's no conflict in a text, like, even if it's just like sorting out a detail, she's just like immediately calls, immediately rings the phone.

 And I'm like, yeah, I'm just noticing how how powerful dialogue is. I mean, I saw that in your emails, I sent you a quick email saying,

 you know, you write the best emails because there was a softness and a strength. And it's really hard to do both, especially in written communication. But I felt very safe in just negotiating what we were going to talk about, etc. And I think that's a that's a gift I'd like to to say, actually, that that's a beautiful gift that you do have in the midst of all your busyness, you know, and so thank you for that, actually. I was so flattered when I saw your your email, because it's something that I that I give a lot of attention to. I want I want good communication.

 And and I am someone that comes from a background of of trauma. And so I understand like learning how to communicate is part of my healing and part of my lessons in this life.

 And I love it. Yeah, wow. So I want to say something when you talk about openness. So one of the things that I did in the last training that we ran was they watched the video, the teachers watch the video, the training teachers, and then they started asking questions, you know, the safe questions. And then it's almost like, actually, no, let's ask the tough questions.

 And what I allowed myself to do, and not all people will do this, because they want to protect themselves. And that's OK, too, was ask the hard questions. So are we allowed to say this?

 Or why can't we say this or why can't and be vulnerable in that space? because at that moment I we choose to lay lay down and whatever arms take the barricade down exactly because these are teachers that will go on to treat to teach and train the next generation and we want to have real conversations anybody can be racist by the way just put just to put that out there and that was one question that we had so and they said there was a we gave them a scenario between a black kid and a white kid and I think the black kid made a comment about a white kid's skin or race or something and we said is this racism and they said no because the black kid some people said no because the black kids because racism is they said discriminating against someone because of the color of their skin and the secondary meaning would be the institutions that have power historically etc etc I said that's great but let's go to the primary definition if I make a comment about you Vanessa because of the color of your skin a derogatory comment that is racism right yeah it doesn't I'm like okay I think educate me yes I may not carry the historical burden of slavery the slave trade and racism against black people or people of color but once I call I say

 something mean to you because of the color of your skin I am being racist towards you in the same way as if you did that to me it would be racist now with me if you did that to me we would be we would of course go back to centuries of all the stuff that comes before that your ancestors may not even have been involved in but we will call that out they were right I'm sorry.

 I don't assume that everybody. Okay. We'll leave it there. So having those tough conversations, the reason for this is if we get a scenario where in school that happens, it's very hard to say to the white kid, no, you do not experience racism. Right. Even though people of color may experience racism more than people than white people, we've had a report recently that's caused so much controversy in the UK. Do you know about this one? I don't know it. Tell me. Okay. Okay. It's a report that came out two weeks ago that says Irish and traveler communities and one other community experienced racism,

 as well as people of color. And so we call them BAME in the UK, British, what? Something and minority ethnic, black and minority ethnic, but I like to say ethnically diverse people or global majority, because just because I'm a minority in this country does not mean that I'm a minority outside. True. And so a member of parliament wrote something and made a comment about Jews.

 And so there's been a backlash about that. It's very heated. You should Google it is very exciting. We have related issues here. With the Jewish communities.

 Yes. Yeah. So that's, I don't know. I kind of went everywhere with that, but the difficult questions are important. I'm going to put a full stop there. Like, don't stop. Never stop. I love the difficult questions because that's, I mean, that's where the juices, that's where the good stuff is.

 Like, you know, that's where that's where the real the healing is. like, even as a child, I'm like, I'm here for the for the interesting stuff. I'm here for the the growth and for the, you know, what moves us forward, you know, small talk is not is not my game. Let's let's go deep. Who are you? Yeah, who am I? Yeah, that's really beautiful. I love that you also bring up, like, the global scale of humanity and, and that actually a lot of us are mixed, like, I have ancestry that were oppressors and I have ancestry that were oppressed. I'm a conundrum. Beautiful conundrum.

 But like, I like to think about it as like, I have the opportunity now, because I'm alive today to change those paths to make a new path and to be vulnerable because I'm safe.

 I have trust in my existence as a human on the planet. I have faith in God and source energy and universe that I'm, I'm here for a reason and that and that when I'm coming from a place of love that I'm supported. And so if I'm, if I'm putting myself in a vulnerable position,

 I do so feeling that support. And I think a lot of people who are in the, like, the dominant oppressor categories, like, get scared about being wrong, being canceled, being, you know, yes, I mean, those things aren't fun, but like, they're not real.

 Like, I mean, when you're with somebody, that's real. When you're talking to somebody face to face that that's what's real.

 And, and it's safe to air your fears out and like, say like I'm, I'm scared here. This is new for me. me um but if you come at it with what I see you coming at it with and and your community is so beautiful is like we're here for the highest best interests of all parties you can't go wrong that way yeah I don't think that everyone has it has chosen to do that and part of the reason is the trauma is so great

 that I can sometimes someone is saying I am barely surviving it takes all of my strength and the community behind me for me to wake up and go into these spaces where I'm racially minoritized right and so I I will not be your school of race I can't you know and it may not be said in a calm way it might be said in a difficult way but we also need to understand that because I can't remember I lived in Nigeria

 until I was 16 right I came I came from a setting where I'm like oh I'm great I'm special I'm whatever I didn't I didn't experience discrimination in Nigeria and I must acknowledge my privilege actually um yeah I must acknowledge my privilege to grow up in that kind of environment exactly exactly and so also when I come into situations and I have a doctor in front of my name I have a doctor in front of my name

 because my mom said to me go get another degree people will respect you if you do she said it to me and I did it and and it's open so it's not I mean I enjoyed it because I chose what at first when she said I was like I'm not doing that I'm not fulfilling that dream of yours whatever and then and then I found a topic that I was passionate about and I went to study but I recognized my privilege again when I

 walk into a space you know because people see a doctor and they think you're interesting and I'm like I can't save your life if you have a medical emergency but let's talk French or race and philosophy.

 I got you. Exactly. So it's a privilege to be able to say, okay, give me the questions. Let's go. Let's do this. I'll answer stuff in that moment.

 And then to say, okay, and to have my time of resting and recover. Yeah. That is definitely something I wanted to ask you about because you bring up such a great point around trauma response and being in survival mode.

 So many people are in survival mode from so many kinds of trauma, racial trauma, familial trauma, and basically any institution that exists in humanity, there's like a trauma,

 major traumas for everybody available. And so you're right. I mean, like for me to come from the perspective that I shared is actually after about 15 years of focusing on healing my own trauma,

 you know? So and I'm privileged to have the resources around me, especially in New Port.

 I mean, the city is so good at taking care of people. I'm just like so blessed to be here and having loving friends around me to help me,

 you know, see my path. But so many people, you're right, are just like there. And so they can't say nicely. I can't talk about that. They have to say it how they feel. And then it feels confrontational.

 And then it, yeah, wow. Especially, especially now that there is a lot of literature out there, especially now where we stopped the world to talk about this, right?

 Go buy a book. Like there's that go buy a book. book and then tell me hey I've been reading this I don't understand this bit can you can can we meet over coffee can I take you to coffee can we talk there are different ways that I think everyone has an individual response but I I did a bit of trauma work not more historical trauma because of slavery and I see trauma as three things right so one the wound the

 initial wound in that moment so not am I not not necessarily a physical wound but the wound that there's emotional or psychic when that happens in the unique moment where there is kind of an event I also see trauma as the response to that event the response to the wound yes and then the the one that I think is more cyclical or is more repeated and even cumulative is the repetition of trauma so if the initial trauma

 is slavery and the slave trade which I did not experience personally right the racism and the words of people and the mispronunciation of my name or the mixing me up with the other black person in the room or the all those things they hit and it's like a thousand paper cuts right I'm like by the end I'm exhausted and I'm all bled out so so I think trauma can be many different things and when we're in diversity and

 inclusion work we have to take the time to take care of ourselves like aggressive rest that's what my sister aggressive rest yes that's what my sister calls it she's like aggressive rest you just have to that's so funny to me because I have so I have narcolepsy with cataplexy so my rest is very aggressive so you get it you guess it you're like yes I get this wow yeah I'm just like okay we're doing this let's go I

 love that oh wow yeah so that um and so I do that I'm very I do in the morning I say my prayers I um I read my bible I come back I like the candles,

 I'm like, play the jazz. I do, yeah, I do all the things that mean that when I go out there, and I have to talk through a deep, brief, a student about a racial encounter that they've had,

 I have these skills. And sometimes because I'm quite an emotional person, like there'll be a little tear dropping, and that's okay too. Well,

 I'm an emotional one too. I'm like, I'm so happy. I'm so sad. I'm alive. I'm alive.

 So the aggressive rest dovetails for me nicely into your botany work and your interest there.

 So I'd love to hear you describe what your work is there. So I like to describe some of my company's daughters of botany and I like to describe it as a love letter between the generations.

 And it's really me paying homage to my mom, who is a botanist, right, but she actually learned that from her mom, who used to go into the forest and get all kinds of rare plants and cuttings and just kind of grow them and see what they were like.

 But I really wanted to do kind of honor that heritage of those two strong, amazing women. And my African roots mean that there are certain things that I don't really have here in terms of skincare,

 right. And I use those African, African ingredients and botanicals in the products that we make. Now why is a love letter between generations is not just three generations,

 everything that happened was actually for my son, who had really bad eczema and just like broken in and bleeding and all this stuff and nothing seemed to be working.

 And so we then created this product for him that would nourish his skin and would heal like super quick healing for him. So that's what daughters of botany is.

 And I think you're a bit of a shape shifter stroke, three personality life. You've got different things going on with you. So you get it, right? So I'm a teacher four days a week and then I run a small skincare brand and I do the race and education work.

 Like all of those people are me. - Well, that's something I wanted to ask you about too. Like, how do you cohease this identity?

 It's something I think about all the time. Like, how do I, when I introduce myself to someone and I'm like, I do this, this, this and that and they're like, what? Who are you? How do you make that one delivery,

 like one informational packet for someone? - Yeah, that's a good question. So sometimes I only introduce myself as the person that needs to be seen in that moment.

 That makes sense. So if I need to be seen as a teacher, so if I'm a teaching circle, I will say I'm a teacher. I might also say that I work in race,

 racial literacy. Yeah, but then when I'm doing the skincare stuff, I hardly talk about being a teacher. I also work, I've been lucky enough to divide my time so that I work four days as a teacher and then one day doing the race stuff,

 the skincare stuff. - I mean, I really see a path where these are the same identity. And personally,

 we all have our own way to figure this stuff out but I've been kind of aggressively asserting. asserting all aspects of who I am into all the conversations because I've been thinking about something David Attenborough said about,

 yeah, I love him, about coral reefs and biodiversity. And he talks about a coral reef is one of the fastest evolving ecosystems on the planet because there's so many different unique individuals that come to the reef and find a home and they don't change who they are to find a home.

 They find a home as who they are and they're like butted up next to somebody else and they're all together. And because it's because everybody is expressing who they fully are on the reef,

 the reef evolves faster. And I've been thinking about this as an interesting metaphor for cities like Flushing, New York is one of the most diverse places on the planet.

 And it's very interesting to see how cohesively everyone lives together there versus where I'm from in the south where it's like everyone's very segregated. But then also internally,

 all these versions of me are me. So I'm like, hi, I do all these things. And for me, it's about kind of not trying to fit into the situation that I'm in,

 but allowing myself to be who I am in all the situations that I am. - Yeah, yeah,

 that's lovely. I think a lot of the time I've paused and thought, oh my goodness, I go to work and then I come back and I have to do skincare stuff. And I'm thinking, oh, well, I'm a teacher and maybe I'm not good enough and blah,

 blah. And it's almost like the mind monkeys descend. And so when I have that one day where I can be creative that fulfills that need for me.

 And then with race and education sometimes I have to be vocal about things. That's like a different personality as well. And so I mean what has worked is splitting it because with the skincare when you're filming that kind of stuff or whatever you've got to be like oh look skincare healing.

 And then race and education you've got to be like I'm going to challenge this so we can heal. The energy you bring is totally different. Yeah it is. Which is interesting and then with teaching you've got to be soft and strong you know.

 You've got to be the one that they come to when they're struggling their cat died. And you're like oh I don't like cats but I won't mention that I'm so sorry about your cat you know. Or they have a new cat.

 Just always the cats. Or grandpa died. Where's the thing. Yeah exactly. It's just an old grandpa died two days ago and they're crying and you just got to be there.

 Or they just don't feel like working in your lesson. And then you're like we're going to do this though because that's why we're here we go.

 But like the botany work is also education. In a way no. It is and the point actually of convergence in a sense is skin.

 My son had lots of questions when he was younger about his skin color. And he made a lot of profound statements and I want him to be comfortable in his skin as a black boy.

 But also comfortable in his skin as someone who struggles with eczema. and so that's where both those healings and identities meet for me.

 I can relate. I have a family history of eczema. My dad gets eczema and as a in high school I had touch eczema like so if you would just like lightly touch me then you would see like the fingerprints it would be like red and so I played basketball so it was really good for fouls.

 I was like look I got a foul. Oh my god. I got a good out. Yeah. Free throws. That's so naughty. That's so naughty.

 I used it to my advantage. You're getting a detention is what you're getting. It's true. Actually when my son was a baby and we'd like touch him we'd literally see that and I was like oh my gosh we've destroyed his life and what is this and he would bruise and he'd get um welts.

 That's what they're called. He'd get welts on his skin just before. Yeah. That was weird. So from do you know the work of Louisa Haye?

 No I don't. Tell me everything. So she um so she's one of my favorite topics so she's a spiritual healer um and she has a book called heal your body which is um is just like a column of of ailments a column of mindset that creates the ailments and a column of affirmations to subvert the mindset and heal the ailment the ailment and for eczema it's like um something around not being safe uh in the world to like

 feel your feelings and be who you are and it's like a it's a neuro neuro system neurological system expression um I'll have to after this I'll send you the page of the from the book yeah Yeah.

 But it's really interesting to like think about disease through the mind. And I'm my dad's a doctor,

 like a medical doctor, like I believe in medical science, but I also believe in the power of the mind to work with the body and either create disease or repair disease.

 And I'm curious, does your son still struggle with eczema or is he is it under control? So that's a good question. My son no longer struggles with eczema because he uses the using the bomb every day.

 Literally, literally, it's like a rescue and repair bomb. But he so a lot of part of me has been like, when I created it, I said I would no longer when we perfected it, I said I would no longer sell it. I said, I'd like to close the company now. And he got really upset. And I said, look, I made this for you. It's working for you.

 I don't need to. And he said, no, I want other people to have it. And I just thought, basically, I think this, I think your eczema is gone because I'm your mom. And emotionally, you're connected to the idea of the cream.

 And then we had like a few people order and then some people were return orders. So I was like, Oh, well, you know, if it's working for them in whatever way,

 that's great. But essentially, my son no longer struggles with eczema, but he uses the cream every day before he had to use it morning and nights. Now he just uses it in the in the morning.

 And he's fine, which is great. When you find something that works, you don't let it go. But yeah, he's going to have to stop paying at some point. Like I'm not working for free. We could just teach him how to make it and he can start his own business.

 If he wants to sell it. That would be very cute. That's beautiful. So so going back to aggressive self care, aggressive napping. What is so you you mentioned your morning routine with reading the Bible and jazz sounds really beautiful.

 Like how do you balance like what do you do? And how do you balance like when you've had a day that surprised you at school where it's like, okay, this big upheaval happened, like what what do you do to then prepare to go back to school the next day?

 Because it's not like you can just take like a week off and just go to, you know, the Caribbean and chill to recover. I mean, maybe you could. Wow. Nope.

 I mean, that's like the ideal, right? It's like I had one hard day and now I have a month to recover, but it's not like that. It's like, okay, now I got to go back into the field. Like I got to get back out there. So yeah, what do you do? I choose to be alone. So what's really, I'm very protected in my home setting in the sense that if I've had a really tough day and I come home, as soon as I get to the door, my husband says to the kids, "Mummy's back. Say hello and let her be. Just say hello and then let her be." And then he'd have cleared like the living room, which is normally their play room, whatever. He'd have cleared them out of it. And he'd put like, he'd maybe make me a cup of tea, but just let me be alone so that I can regain all the energy that I feel like I've expended.

 And so I can be a good human, you know? And we all have what we need to be good humans, please. And then that's the time of just having that prayer time,

 just being like, and it's not, it's not a complex thing. It's just, God, I'm tired and I'm disappointed and I'm hurt.

 I'm exhausted. Why is the world still like this in 2023? Why can't I bubble wrap my students in, I was going to say, like eco -friendly bubble wrap? Because I'm talking to you.

 It's bio, biofilm. And just protect them from all the rubbish in society in the world.

 But yeah, that time, I cherish those times to be alone. And I'm very, I'm an ambivert.

 So I like my, so I'm like, when I'm in school, I'm like, hey, how are you? And then, but then there are times when I've got, yeah, when I literally, yeah, I need to go back and recharge. I just, it's too much. Yeah. And so sometimes people on the, I walk 15 minutes back home from school, and sometimes a colleague will say, should I give you a ride? And I'm like, nope, I'm good. Because this is my time to just recalibrate and center myself. Yeah. Yeah. So many people don't give themselves that grace to have that time.

 Like they'll succumb to the peer pressure or the, yeah, the offer, like it sounds easier. So let's do that. But yeah, no, it's, yeah, so vital.

 That's beautiful. I also like how simple you made it. It's like simple. It's easy. Life is complex enough. We can simplify some things.

 Let's go. I have to admit. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that. Okay. So what else do I want to ask you about?

 Let me get back to my notes. Yeah, I guess I'm wondering, like, from all the work that you've done in this field, and helping people from different backgrounds, especially children come come together and find each other and and see each other and and love each other there or, you know, know each other from from that place of understanding, do you have any advice or tips or like, yeah, instruction of any kind for adults who want to be better, who want to do better, but because it's not just we're not just doing better by other people, we're doing better by ourselves when we can do better by other people. So it's better for all of us. So I would say read, read up on bias, read up on race, become racially literate. You know, when we talk about unconscious bias and it's not being aware of the bias that you have. But there's so much stuff out there now in terms of literature and talks about unconscious bias that you can no longer say you are unaware if you identify something in you that refuses to be inclusive in your approach to people of diverse heritage.

 So time is running out on unconscious bias. It is good. We're calling that. And then I would say then make sure you have a diverse group of friends so that you're able to understand where people are coming from, learn. So even though I'm of what is called minority ethnic heritage, I like to learn about other cultures. So I will go to I've spent I live part of my life in in France and in Italy.

 And I like to travel. I like to learn. I like to see what the culture is like. And it's just like a five day window, right? You don't get to know everything. But then go to a museum, go to Japan House, go to a Chinese festival, go somewhere where you're going to be out of your depth. And therefore you have to learn go somewhere where you don't know the customs. It can be in your local setting, but a particular context where you don't know the customs and you have to learn from scratch, right? That's what I would say. So read and then get out of your comfort comfort zone.

 Have good conversations, make diverse friends. That's like the most fun way that I've ever heard anyone tackle this. Like go to a Chinese festival.

 That's so fun. They're so beautiful and fun, and that's so nice. Like it doesn't have to have to be always heavy. Like it can also healing is fun.

 It can be. I think we focus on, I love that what you said that it can, learning about new cultures can be fun, about other people's experiences can be amazing.

 We have this narrative of oppression and resistance, oppression and resistance, oppression and resistance, but we forget about celebration, right?

 And that's a shame because so many things to celebrate. So true. So true. So many beautiful elements of our diversity. And it's making me think about something I recently gave back a bunch of littered plastic to the company that makes profit from it.

 Yeah. And it was nerve wracking, but it was also like it felt very important. And I had fun doing it, but it made me think about in the eco movement, you know, we there's it's like the pollution has been very aggressive. So the response to pollution has been very aggressive. Like, you know, yeah, I'm going to chain myself to a tree.

 I'm going to, you know, I'm going to throw paint on this van go that you love, you know, to make a make a statement. And those those actions are very important.

 But they're not the only way to tackle the problem. And it can be fun to tackle the problem. And it can be playful. And like, I feel like that's a new thing that we that we're able to bring into the conversation because the aggression has been like the aggressive hand has been played.

 And so now, you know, we can have more other elements, like the aggressive action, as I'm not doing very good at language right now, the aggressive oppression was met with a force that was also powerful.

 And then because they have met other other forces can join the party. I love it. Yeah. I mean, dialogue is important, right? And you can you can shout and protest in the streets, but you also need to go into the boardrooms and dialogue. Those are equally valid ways of changing the world or take people's rubbish back to them. I think the curator I work with on another ego project, she was like, did they call the police? And I was like, oh, I didn't stick around long enough to find out. I listened to an audio thing. Was there did you put an audio on your Instagram? Yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, please forgive me. And also bye. Here's your shit back. But but I was thinking about that if they had called the police and the police came,

 what would they say? Like she gave us back the stuff that we make. Is that illegal? And it would be an interesting, you know, I would, as a thought experiment, I would love to see how that plays out. I don't necessarily want to be the person that plays that out. Yeah. Just running is what you're going to do if you try that.

 Yeah. But I mean, I tried to use my advantages of like being white and having, you know, professional demeanor and being friendly to people.

 people. Like I was able to get through security, carrying big plastic bags of rubbish from the street, you know, it's like crushed water bottles.

 Yeah, it's like very gross stuff, you know. And got all the way into their lobby. And the people were so nice, like everyone was so nice. It just reminded me of like, just because we do bad things doesn't mean we're bad people. And just because we don't understand what we're doing and the full ramifications of what we're doing doesn't mean that we're bad and wrong.

 It means like we need to be called in, we need to be confronted lovingly, ideally. (laughing) Or at least with a fun, something fun happening. Yeah. Okay, so this has been so wonderful. I feel like I could keep you all afternoon, but I won't do that. (laughing) It's been so fun. I love this. I love it. Thank you. You're like, people like you are the reason that I love this podcast, that I love doing this work 'cause I get to, you know, go deep with people that I think are amazing. So, you're a star of amazingness in my world.

 Thank you. Of course. So I have some short answer questions for you, like rapid fire. What's the best advice that you've ever received? Don't hide your lies under a bushel.

 Beautiful. So good. What's the worst advice you've ever received? It's from the mind -grammlings, the mind -monkeys who tell me that I'm not enough,

 I'm not ready, I can't do it. Yeah, that's the worst advice I've gotten. And I don't really listen to them anymore. How do you, how do you face them? them? I, my community really supports me. So when I tell my mom that I feel like I'm not ready, she laughs at me. And then I, that snaps me back to reality. And she's like, you're, you're so intelligent, you're so this, you're so that, and she speaks into me in the most wonderful and powerful way. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to fly now on my wings into space, like I can conquer the world after she's spoken over me. And I, I do that same practice with my children. I speak over them.

Also with some of my students, when I feel like they've gone through a hard time, I speak over them, those words that make them realize that they are loved, you know, they're valued and they are super talented.

 So powerful. I just had a little flash of my high school principal. Spence at Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Magnet High School for the Health Sciences and Engineering. Shout out to Nashville's public schools! But Dr. Spence was so good at like speaking to all of us, and letting us know that we were excellence, all of us together, that we would all rise together. And she handpicked this school, like she created it. I'm very, I'm very lucky to have come from her nest. She's amazing. You're going to get me emotional now. Yes. Well, you're creating that same kind of environment. I really, I really see that and hear that and, and what you're doing. And, and like those kids are so lucky that our world is so lucky that you, that you're creating it. Yeah, such a blessing. Okay, so what's the biggest lesson that you've learned in life to date? I think I said it earlier, like travel, experience other cultures, learn a new language. Just something that opens up your mind and broadens your horizons and makes you realize that there's more to life than just you and your experience, right? Yeah. Beautiful. Sorry, that thing with Dr. Spence's got me all emotional in my feelings. I was just like, what's happening? She's magic. Like, she's so powerful. I didn't know how good I had it. I'm sure she'll be very proud of you. I would love to see her again. I would love to have her as a guest on this podcast, actually. Do it. You have to reach out to her. Yes. Let's see. How do you define your life purpose?

 To be the best mother and wife that I can be, because that's my first job. I don't really get paid in hugs and kisses, but that's okay.

 And then my purpose in society really is to bring down, to tear down the last bastion of slavery. And I believe that the last bastion of slavery is racism.

 And so here we are. Yes. Yes. Beautiful. I love it. It's very clear. I'm here for it.

 I'm like, yes, let's do it. And then this might be an odd question, but take it wherever you want to go. Can you share an experience of something in your life that you think other people would benefit from having the experience of?

 You mentioned travel and learning another language, But is there. Yeah, and maybe anything else that other people would benefit from experiencing. Yeah.

 So, um, when I was six, I said a little prayer that I wanted to become a singer. Yeah. Um, didn't wasn't really a singer, but I just really wanted that. And so when I was 10, I moved to a new school and I could play the piano and the guy says, okay, play the piano. And he says, okay, now sing.

 I'm like, oh no, I don't do that. That's not a thing. And he's like, no, no, sing. And that was the day my music career started. And I'd go from place to place and I'd sing.

 I ended up studying music and doing some opera singing singing. And so that's like my secret life before, before all of this other stuff.

 Um, so I think the lesson for me in that moment was, what did I want at that age and I did pray about it. And the same as I'm here because I said a little prayer, right.

 I'm on this podcast because those little prayers do count. And when they are being coming to pass in a sense, right. Like, don't shut it down just because you never tried it.

 And then when those things come to an end understand that it's if there is a transferable skill, because I sang in places where I hadn't like I was going to concerts that I was like the youngest person there I all these things right because I did that.

 Now, when they say, Oh, talk about race. I'm like, I have a voice and I and I use that voice to sing the same voice is what I use to talk about racial injustice.

 And I believe that in the same way those emotions when I would sing and people be like, Oh my God, so emotional. I think the same way we can change the world by touching the hearts of people and speaking truth to our society and asking for more than the status quo, asking for fairness, for equality, for love, for community, for inclusion, for diversity. So say your prayer, don't walk away when the thing is happening and then understand that that thing happened for a moment.

 You can use it in other ways. You can build on it. That's a long thing that I said. That's beautiful. Oh my gosh, you have a beautiful voice, so I'm not surprised that you're a singer. Yeah, I can hear it. Wow, and you just kind of blew my mind a little bit because you coalesced some loose thoughts that I've had into like a cohesive statement.

 As a child, I was a singer. Like I was like, just like, yeah. I, and I was obsessed. I just, like it just what is what I just what I was like, I, you know, couldn't help it. And, and then I had a moment. I was Annie in the school play and it was like, I didn't even go out for the part they just gave it to me because they were like this kid, you know. And then a couple years later, I was shut down around my voice. Someone told me I sang too loud.

 And it was someone I looked up to. And I like, I took it to heart, you know, I like took it hard. And over this last year, especially since the pandemic, like I've been singing by myself, I sing by myself like so much, just like all of it, you know, I just sing everything. And, and I've seen in my comfort with like singing out on my bike I'll sing as I'm biking.

 You know, it becomes a little more public, you know, but as I'm able to do that I'm able to do this better, like I'm able to have dialogue in front of other people. And like my voice and my work expands because of that, you know, you just like summarize it. This, like, we have so much, we have so much in common. I love this. I love everything. It's amazing. I feel like I need to come over there and then we can hang out.

 Yes, you should. Because you visited, right? You came one time, yeah? I was there in January. Yeah, I'll be back. I'll be back. Yes. Then we're going to have coffee.

 Yes. I don't even drink coffee. We'll have like whatever we can have that will keep me up at night. Yeah. I don't drink coffee either. But I will drink. Actually, yeah, because it'd be bad for you.

 I drink some tea. I'll drink a lot of tea. I like all the teas. I drink all this. I love that. Oh my goodness. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I do treasure what you share. Thank you. Thank you. Well, yeah. I just feel so honored to have this conversation with you and to, to get to know you. And I'm so delighted to share you with the people that listened to this podcast. You're doing such important work, just like being alive as a human. And then also the work work that you're doing. And I'm so, so grateful to you. And I'm so grateful for that series that you guys put out.

Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. You're the best Vanessa. Okay, so we recorded. I'm going to stop recording.